Banned From OzCanyons!

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DaveJones
Posts: 28
Joined: 22 May 2018, 23:04
Full name: Dave Jones
City: Sydney
State: New South Wales

Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by DaveJones » 28 Jun 2019, 21:43

Wow, Julie just booted me from the OzCanyons forum!
I'm stunned.
Why?
I posted a link to this 756 Acre property for sale at Katoomba, yes, 756 Acres!
https://www.domain.com.au/28-pulpit-hil ... 2015405115
I posted it because it's a massive amount of wilderness up for private sale and I thought some people might be interested in discussing that. Perhaps there are even canyons there?
The post seem to vanish so I asked if it had been deleted. And then I notice she deleted another post to GoFundMe to save that Wilderness property, and again I asked why. Next thing I saw was a message "Please remove yourself David", and when I went to ask what she meant by that I couldn't reply because I had been removed from the group!

I've been an OzCanyons member from almost day one back in the early 2000's
I was the #1 poster on the OzCanyon Yahoo group for more than decade.
I was editor and printer of the yearly OzCanyons calendar.
I archived the group at ozcanyons.org site, amongst other contributions.
I've contributed more than most over almost 20 years, and I get removed because of that post. Wow, just wow.

Anyway, I wanted as many people to know as possible that I can't contribute to OzCanyons any more.
If anyone here is active on the OzCanyons Facebook I'd appreciate if you could somehow (without getting banned) let people know I'm no longer able to contribute there.

Thanks.
I do hope this post isn't against the rules here...



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DaveJones
Posts: 28
Joined: 22 May 2018, 23:04
Full name: Dave Jones
City: Sydney
State: New South Wales

Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by DaveJones » 29 Jun 2019, 10:14

UPDATE: Julie has now apologised and unblocked me, I have reapplied to join the group again and was accepted.

I just noticed in the sign up the rules are:
Group Rules from the Admins
1
Be Nice!
Healthy debates are welcome, but shit-stirring, rudeness, or inflammatory comments will not be tolerated. Offenders will be removed and blocked.
2
Canyoning
Please keep it canyoning. Unrelated posts including petitions and notices of rallys will be removed.
3
Canyoning Code of Ethics.
The Code Of Ethics as per NPWS pinned to the top of the page. OzCanyons encourages compliance with our Land Managers' rules and posts openly contravening these will be removed.
4
Grievances or Issues
We request that any grievances or issues with moderation be addressed privately by messaging the admins. Thank you.
5
Marketing.
This is not the place to advertise or promote your business unless responding directly to a member question. Please use the OzCanyons Buy, Swap, Sell page
6
Removal of Members
Trolls and repeat offenders of any of the above will be removed.

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T2
Site Admin
Posts: 257
Joined: 15 May 2018, 10:33
Full name: Tim Vollmer
City: Blaxland
State: New South Wales

Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by T2 » 29 Jun 2019, 11:44

Dave, I'm sorry to hear about your experience, but am not entirely surprised (although great news that you were unblocked and got an apology -- much more than many others get!) You are one of many active canyoners who have been blocked from that group in recent years.

I was banned early this year for similarly challenging a post that was deleted. In my case, it was directly canyoning related. What really annoyed me was that almost identical posts had been allowed by other people. I posted screen-shots of those posts -- including one by an admin -- and it was that public questioning that got me banned. My experience was that the moderation practices are really subjective, with posts allowed by people who were friends of the admin that would be deleted if others made them. It was that inconsistency that upset me. Not to mention the fact that I didn't receive a warning and there was no process to review the decision.

I'm aware of many much worse examples of people being banned, including someone who hadn't even posted or commented in a couple months. That one was overturned by the other, much more thoughtful admin. But it was still really upsetting. Especially as she was banned because of her association with me, which demonstrated a pettiness that I found extraordinary.

On this forum, we have never banned anyone, and I'm only aware of one post being moderated (with discussion and explanation with the original poster). I'm a firm believer that discussion needs to be open. As long as people talk to each other nicely -- as you would in real life -- then there is no issue having differences of opinion.

And if you're looking for a facebook group to share canyoning adventures, photos, and discussion, there is a newly formed alternative that has gained a great deal of interest: Blue Mountains Canyoning.

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JulieB
Posts: 9
Joined: 22 May 2018, 18:51
Full name: Julie Burton
City: Bathurst
State: New South Wales

Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by JulieB » 29 Jun 2019, 12:47

Yep dreadful person that Julie character. Never done anything for the canyoning community except provide target practice for haters. How about I bend over so the next person gets a good shot to boot me up the backside.

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JulieB
Posts: 9
Joined: 22 May 2018, 18:51
Full name: Julie Burton
City: Bathurst
State: New South Wales

Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by JulieB » 29 Jun 2019, 13:01

And further to that Mr Vollmer, I suggest you get your facts correct before publically bad-mouthing me. There are many inaccuracies in your nasty little reply. You will know what they are.

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T2
Site Admin
Posts: 257
Joined: 15 May 2018, 10:33
Full name: Tim Vollmer
City: Blaxland
State: New South Wales

Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by T2 » 29 Jun 2019, 13:33

Julie, like most people, I have always appreciated your efforts and passion for canyoning. I tried to support them by actively encouraging people to join and support the NSWCA when it launched. I would encourage you to continue putting that passion to good use.

I also didn't name you in my post, but I did want to make the point that Dave was not alone and others had suffered similar fates. I stand by the accuracy of everything I wrote.

I also want to point out that your passion and hard work don't counteract the moments of bad behaviour. Rather than play the victim card, perhaps take on the feedback (which you have received from many people over many years almost entirely in a private and polite manner) and avoid creating incidents like this one. Just my two cents...

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JulieB
Posts: 9
Joined: 22 May 2018, 18:51
Full name: Julie Burton
City: Bathurst
State: New South Wales

Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by JulieB » 29 Jun 2019, 15:36

Well let's start with this for example.
"I'm aware of many much worse examples of people being banned, including someone who hadn't even posted or commented in a couple months. That one was overturned by the other, much more thoughtful admin."

The other much more thoughtful admin was in fact Me! The situation came about when your friend's account showed in the Unavailable listing which appears in admin tools. When this is still there after a week, I clear those names. Your friend contacted me and it was sorted out.

Shall I continue to set you straight one ach allegation you made? Or will we leave this right here?

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T2
Site Admin
Posts: 257
Joined: 15 May 2018, 10:33
Full name: Tim Vollmer
City: Blaxland
State: New South Wales

Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by T2 » 19 Sep 2019, 14:01

T2 wrote:
29 Jun 2019, 11:44
And if you're looking for a facebook group to share canyoning adventures, photos, and discussion, there is a newly formed alternative that has gained a great deal of interest: Blue Mountains Canyoning.
Just to update, it seems this new Facebook group is also facing issues with arbitrary bans for people who disagree with the admin.

The last few times I checked it, the first post was always about bolting (sometime people promoting new routes they'd bolted, sometimes discussing bolt types, sometimes showing places they intend to bolt). I made a post asking whether it was indeed a canyoning group, or just a bolting group. I also highlighted that bolting without permission in NSW National Parks is illegal. Finally I shared the very thoughtful and useful bolting guidelines developed over the ditch in NZ.

The NZ guidelines are built around three simple questions that people should ask themselves before placing bolts in canyons: are we allowed to bolt? should we bolt? and if so, how do we bolt?

Apparently, asking people to be thoughtful and ethical in their actions was a bridge too far...

Flynny
Posts: 57
Joined: 22 May 2018, 16:10
Full name: Craig Flynn
City: The 'Go
State: New South Wales

Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by Flynny » 19 Sep 2019, 15:45

To be fair there has been more talk on AC about ghosting techniques and not leaving slings in wilderness canyons than bolting. And the bolting discussion that has taken place have invariably been in relation to whitewater canyons outside the Bluies and OS canyon.
Endless bolting debates on elsewhere have been a source of frustration to a lot of people, Unfortunately, that thread was going the same way.

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