Banned From OzCanyons!

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DaveJones
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Full name: Dave Jones
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Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by DaveJones » 28 Jun 2019, 21:43

Wow, Julie just booted me from the OzCanyons forum!
I'm stunned.
Why?
I posted a link to this 756 Acre property for sale at Katoomba, yes, 756 Acres!
https://www.domain.com.au/28-pulpit-hil ... 2015405115
I posted it because it's a massive amount of wilderness up for private sale and I thought some people might be interested in discussing that. Perhaps there are even canyons there?
The post seem to vanish so I asked if it had been deleted. And then I notice she deleted another post to GoFundMe to save that Wilderness property, and again I asked why. Next thing I saw was a message "Please remove yourself David", and when I went to ask what she meant by that I couldn't reply because I had been removed from the group!

I've been an OzCanyons member from almost day one back in the early 2000's
I was the #1 poster on the OzCanyon Yahoo group for more than decade.
I was editor and printer of the yearly OzCanyons calendar.
I archived the group at ozcanyons.org site, amongst other contributions.
I've contributed more than most over almost 20 years, and I get removed because of that post. Wow, just wow.

Anyway, I wanted as many people to know as possible that I can't contribute to OzCanyons any more.
If anyone here is active on the OzCanyons Facebook I'd appreciate if you could somehow (without getting banned) let people know I'm no longer able to contribute there.

Thanks.
I do hope this post isn't against the rules here...



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DaveJones
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by DaveJones » 29 Jun 2019, 10:14

UPDATE: Julie has now apologised and unblocked me, I have reapplied to join the group again and was accepted.

I just noticed in the sign up the rules are:
Group Rules from the Admins
1
Be Nice!
Healthy debates are welcome, but shit-stirring, rudeness, or inflammatory comments will not be tolerated. Offenders will be removed and blocked.
2
Canyoning
Please keep it canyoning. Unrelated posts including petitions and notices of rallys will be removed.
3
Canyoning Code of Ethics.
The Code Of Ethics as per NPWS pinned to the top of the page. OzCanyons encourages compliance with our Land Managers' rules and posts openly contravening these will be removed.
4
Grievances or Issues
We request that any grievances or issues with moderation be addressed privately by messaging the admins. Thank you.
5
Marketing.
This is not the place to advertise or promote your business unless responding directly to a member question. Please use the OzCanyons Buy, Swap, Sell page
6
Removal of Members
Trolls and repeat offenders of any of the above will be removed.

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T2
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by T2 » 29 Jun 2019, 11:44

Dave, I'm sorry to hear about your experience, but am not entirely surprised (although great news that you were unblocked and got an apology -- much more than many others get!) You are one of many active canyoners who have been blocked from that group in recent years.

I was banned early this year for similarly challenging a post that was deleted. In my case, it was directly canyoning related. What really annoyed me was that almost identical posts had been allowed by other people. I posted screen-shots of those posts -- including one by an admin -- and it was that public questioning that got me banned. My experience was that the moderation practices are really subjective, with posts allowed by people who were friends of the admin that would be deleted if others made them. It was that inconsistency that upset me. Not to mention the fact that I didn't receive a warning and there was no process to review the decision.

I'm aware of many much worse examples of people being banned, including someone who hadn't even posted or commented in a couple months. That one was overturned by the other, much more thoughtful admin. But it was still really upsetting. Especially as she was banned because of her association with me, which demonstrated a pettiness that I found extraordinary.

On this forum, we have never banned anyone, and I'm only aware of one post being moderated (with discussion and explanation with the original poster). I'm a firm believer that discussion needs to be open. As long as people talk to each other nicely -- as you would in real life -- then there is no issue having differences of opinion.

And if you're looking for a facebook group to share canyoning adventures, photos, and discussion, there is a newly formed alternative that has gained a great deal of interest: Blue Mountains Canyoning.

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JulieB
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by JulieB » 29 Jun 2019, 12:47

Yep dreadful person that Julie character. Never done anything for the canyoning community except provide target practice for haters. How about I bend over so the next person gets a good shot to boot me up the backside.

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JulieB
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by JulieB » 29 Jun 2019, 13:01

And further to that Mr Vollmer, I suggest you get your facts correct before publically bad-mouthing me. There are many inaccuracies in your nasty little reply. You will know what they are.

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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by T2 » 29 Jun 2019, 13:33

Julie, like most people, I have always appreciated your efforts and passion for canyoning. I tried to support them by actively encouraging people to join and support the NSWCA when it launched. I would encourage you to continue putting that passion to good use.

I also didn't name you in my post, but I did want to make the point that Dave was not alone and others had suffered similar fates. I stand by the accuracy of everything I wrote.

I also want to point out that your passion and hard work don't counteract the moments of bad behaviour. Rather than play the victim card, perhaps take on the feedback (which you have received from many people over many years almost entirely in a private and polite manner) and avoid creating incidents like this one. Just my two cents...

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JulieB
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by JulieB » 29 Jun 2019, 15:36

Well let's start with this for example.
"I'm aware of many much worse examples of people being banned, including someone who hadn't even posted or commented in a couple months. That one was overturned by the other, much more thoughtful admin."

The other much more thoughtful admin was in fact Me! The situation came about when your friend's account showed in the Unavailable listing which appears in admin tools. When this is still there after a week, I clear those names. Your friend contacted me and it was sorted out.

Shall I continue to set you straight one ach allegation you made? Or will we leave this right here?

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T2
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by T2 » 19 Sep 2019, 14:01

T2 wrote:
29 Jun 2019, 11:44
And if you're looking for a facebook group to share canyoning adventures, photos, and discussion, there is a newly formed alternative that has gained a great deal of interest: Blue Mountains Canyoning.
Just to update, it seems this new Facebook group is also facing issues with arbitrary bans for people who disagree with the admin.

The last few times I checked it, the first post was always about bolting (sometime people promoting new routes they'd bolted, sometimes discussing bolt types, sometimes showing places they intend to bolt). I made a post asking whether it was indeed a canyoning group, or just a bolting group. I also highlighted that bolting without permission in NSW National Parks is illegal. Finally I shared the very thoughtful and useful bolting guidelines developed over the ditch in NZ.

The NZ guidelines are built around three simple questions that people should ask themselves before placing bolts in canyons: are we allowed to bolt? should we bolt? and if so, how do we bolt?

Apparently, asking people to be thoughtful and ethical in their actions was a bridge too far...

Flynny
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by Flynny » 19 Sep 2019, 15:45

To be fair there has been more talk on AC about ghosting techniques and not leaving slings in wilderness canyons than bolting. And the bolting discussion that has taken place have invariably been in relation to whitewater canyons outside the Bluies and OS canyon.
Endless bolting debates on elsewhere have been a source of frustration to a lot of people, Unfortunately, that thread was going the same way.

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T2
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by T2 » 22 Sep 2019, 15:53

Craig, by all means, make those points. I was just expressing my experience. I expected others to have a contrary view. That's what discussions are all about. But banning people for asking a resonable question is pretty poor form. Especially when the replies that saw things go downhill, including insults and genuinely argumentative stuff, did not result in people being banned (perhaps because those people are friends with the admin...).
I'm all for encouraging respectful debate, but silencing anyone who disagrees with you is not how that is done. The real irony was that when you and Maddie started that group, one or the stated aims was to escape the excessive moderation and arbitrary bans that had occurred elsewhere. This experience shows an alarming failure to uphold that stated objective.

Flynny
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by Flynny » 23 Sep 2019, 15:49

I think you know my personal thoughts on what happen T2 so I won't go into it here as I did ask you to leave it with me...

But anyhoo, a couple of points
T2 wrote:
22 Sep 2019, 15:53
Especially when the replies that saw things go downhill, including insults and genuinely argumentative stuff, did not result in people being banned
That's an incorrect assumption. You were not the only one muted nor was yours the only post removed.
T2 wrote:
22 Sep 2019, 15:53
(perhaps because those people are friends with the admin...).

This may be true to a slight extent. I was quite happy to contact a mate directly and tell them to pull their head in. It's what mates do, I don't think there is anything wrong with that
T2 wrote:
22 Sep 2019, 15:53
I'm all for encouraging respectful debate, but silencing anyone who disagrees with you is not how that is done.

I think people will know I encourage healthy discussion (and in the past have not above the odd slinging match, but I' and changed man or sumfink :D)

Posts on both sides of the coin were taken down. You are assuming we disagreed with your basic point.
Again, that's an assumption and not necessarily a true one.

The reason posts were taken down was because they brought nothing new to the table and just encouraged the same tired arguments by the same small number of people that have occurred over and over and over and over and over and over...
T2 wrote:
22 Sep 2019, 15:53
The real irony was that when you and Maddie started that group, one or the stated aims was to escape the excessive moderation and arbitrary bans that had occurred elsewhere.


That was never the intention of the group, stated or otherwise,

In fact when people first made the claim/accusation that it was unmoderated I specifically countered and said it wasn't the case. You certainly weren't the first person to be turned away, banned or have post-approval turned on for reasons that are our own to make.

Originally the group was just a place for a bunch of friends to poke fun at each other, organise trips and share our love of canyoning without all the bitterness, politics and endless circular debates that had crept in elsewhere.

The actual stated intention was " to share our love of canyoning without the politics". Now as I've stated elsewhere that does not mean without ethics. Politics and ethics are two very different things

Now for one reason or another, the group soon outgrew the original bunch of mates. It seems others wanted somewhere more light-hearted to hang out too, or just had fomo, or whatever. While ever it kept rolling in the positive light we were happy for it to do so. The vast majority of people love canyoning for similar reasons. All of us are green. The shade changes, sure, we just want people to celebrate the colour not fight over the shade.

TBH I think we've managed to stay fairly true to that stated intention.


Is the bolting debate an important debate? Yep. Does it need to be rehashed every other week by the same people making the same points? Nope.

Is the AC group the place to have the discussion..... it's not my group I just help out but I'll back my little mate every time.

Anyway. Happy canyoning. Hope to catch you out there somewhere.
In the real world we all seem to get along just fine.
Peace, love and mungbeans, Flynny

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T2
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by T2 » 24 Sep 2019, 09:40

Craig, I think you're still missing the crux of my complaint.

I made a post that was not in breach of the group rules, and was arbitrarily banned from the group. Those people who did breach the group rules by being argumentative and insulting got polite messages from an admin.

Bolting posts are regularly allowed in the group. I've seen people outlining planned routes, promoting recently bolted routes, discuss bolting techniques, discuss bolts themselves, etc, etc. None of those people were banned for doing so. My post simply responded to those and encouraged people to ensure their actions were legal, ethical, and sustainable.

Allowing people to express one point of view, but banning people who express a contrary view, is not operating "without the politics". It's profoundly political.

Flynny
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by Flynny » 25 Sep 2019, 16:43

I like you Tim, I really do. I wasn't going to respond but you are kinda cute when you are indignant and a couple of your claims aren't entirely factual so I'll play the game
T2 wrote:
24 Sep 2019, 09:40
Craig, I think you're still missing the crux of my complaint.
Na, I got it the first time. When you text me and I asked you to leave it with me. I was trying to sort it out. Now, not so much
T2 wrote:
24 Sep 2019, 09:40
Those people who did breach the group rules by being argumentative and insulting got polite messages from an admin.
At risk of repeating myself, you were not the only one to cop a ban

The "polite message" thing has me a bit baffled but if it refers to what i think it does then it was a completely different post. AFAIR the poster didn't comment on your thread, argumentatively, insultingly or otherwise. There was no arguments or insults generated by his thread.
My reply was less polite and thought out than the one I posted on your thread. It simply asked every to chill out and cease the bolting posts. At the time I was still trying to work out what happened

I'm pretty sure that thread eventually got deleted and the poster muted too
T2 wrote:
24 Sep 2019, 09:40
Bolting posts are regularly allowed in the group. I've seen people outlining planned routes, promoting recently bolted routes, discuss bolting techniques, discuss bolts themselves, etc, etc. None of those people were banned for doing so.
Incorrect again.

Some bolting posts have been informative and generated reasonable discussion on both sides of the coin and have been tolerated, Kosta has been a pretty forthright champion for the zero bolting ethic, he's not banned.


Other bolting posts have been deleted. Once again, you are not the only one to be banned
T2 wrote:
24 Sep 2019, 09:40
My post simply responded to those and encouraged people to ensure their actions were legal, ethical, and sustainable.
It had been posted before, on Australian Canyoners, on Ozcanyons, on here, probably elsewhere.
People saw it as preachy, it brought nothing new and only sparked the exact type of bolt debate the majority of people are well and truly sick of and what we are trying to get away from

TBH it's just a facebook group not a court of law, we are under no obligation to be fair, just or unbiased.

And, it's just a facebook group.

being banned is not the end of the world. When I got banned from ozcanyons I didn't feel the need to bag out the group or admins I simply shrugged and thought "Meh, fair enough" and went canyoning.

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T2
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by T2 » 25 Sep 2019, 16:58

Flynny wrote:
25 Sep 2019, 16:43
I wasn't going to respond but you are kinda cute when you are indignant
I take offense at that Flynny. I'm cute all the time, not just when I'm indignant!

Also, I've now got two canyons planned for this weekend, so am already in a much better mood. The real thing is so much better than the online / social media version. Catch you out there.

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JulieB
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Re: Banned From OzCanyons!

Post by JulieB » 03 Oct 2019, 08:44

Craig Flynn says "When I got banned from ozcanyons I didn't feel the need to bag out the group or admins I simply shrugged and thought "Meh, fair enough" and went canyoning."
For the record, Craig is not banned (the correct term is blocked), only removed., and that is due to his conflict of ethics between OzCanyons, and the one Tim is referring to here. But banned sounds way more dramatic and is a great way to poke another cheap shot at OzCanyons, which btw he does on occasion from his admin chair in his new group.

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